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New Member | MadLordOfMilk posts 2 11:52 am January 19, 2010
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After reading over the XD20 rules, and based on my experience with very rules-light games like Risus, my only question is this: how do you limit magic?
After all, magic can't do everything, that'd be silly. However, it's not exactly clear in how to limit its effectiveness. In games of Risus, I've seen players rattle off some random effect they want to cast, and the more ridiculous it is the higher the DC they're asked to roll. The thing is, sometimes it might not be so ridiculous, as they might've had a different definition of "magic" than the DM. I get the feeling this could easily occur in XD20 as well.
So, barring the obviously broken (read: clown shoes ridiculous), what's the best way to define magic in terms of its limitations/expectations?
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Power Member | cliffordholm Evansville, IN posts 281 6:59 pm January 19, 2010
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This is a very good question.
Also your players will be thinking along the lines of “Why would anyone choose a different character type if all the power and fun is being dispensed by the magicians?” After a couple sessions you’d have a party full of magi.
Here’s some limits that I place on my players.
I mostly use the Hero Quest magic cards, its that old game from the early 90’s. But each spell is a card. When a spell is cast the card is removed from your hand. Out of cards then out of spells.
This has been greatly modified in that I also let the players look at any spell from any book and they can cast those spells if they discard one of the Hero quest cards. In effect the cards are just a counting devise then. For really powerful spells sometime I’ll let 2 cards be spent.
The next thing that I’ve done since becoming an XDM is heavily borrow from the “True Dungeon” method. By that I mean I test my players.
I have a set of flash cards and basically ask “What is it?” then from memory or with a timer going the player scrambles through their source book to find the answer.
To rephrase this, the player discards a card to cast a spell. The player is then tested and based on the answer the spell fizzles or is magnified.
I’ve matched the flash cards up to the character class.
Druids have tree leaves and the spell book is an Audubon Field Guide.
Cleric has First Aid.
Wizard has stellar Constellations and the spell book is an Astronomy 101 textbook.
A bit of an aside here, but also since becoming an XDM I use a lot of Morse Code. It’s my ‘secret language’ for any magic scroll or code words or racial language.
I’ll even admit I enjoy seeing my players learn something. Things like tree leaves and first aid. The player who’s character is the monk is actually getting pretty good at Morse Code.
Well that’s how I currently do it. Maybe tonight I’ll reread the XDM guide to refresh my mind.
You’ve asked a very good question.
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Power Member | Big Ben Sarasota, Florida posts 76 9:55 pm January 19, 2010
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The rule about limiting magic is also very much aimed towards our own writing as XDMs. The lesson to pull from that is to never just use the words "it's magic" to describe something that we created when a player asks about it. Put some thought into the floating chandelier, make the clifface unscalable for a well thought out reason instead of just telling players that they can't do something because of magic.
Our eyes are open and should never again be bound by the contraints of pitifully unthought out excuses.
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Power Member | DocTwisted Hollister, CA posts 160 1:27 am January 27, 2010
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Generally, the bigger or more powerful what they're trying to do is… the more cost in materials, energy, and time it takes to prepare properly… AND the greater the chance is of failure because there's just… so… many… steps, and you must get all of them right.
To put it in another set of terms… the more they're pushing against reality, the harder and more expensive it is to do. If they want to scry for a person they think is within the same tavern they're in, that's pretty cheap and easy. If they want to scry the whole township, that's gonna take an hour at least and require a LOT of mercury (costly to get) to keep refilling the scrying pool. A global scry to view a person you don't know the location of is gonna take such an ungodly amount of time that they might as well start walking.
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"I seem to be having tremendous difficulty with my lifestyle."
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New Member | FurinMirado posts 2 2:10 pm July 11, 2010
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I have yet to run a game using the XD20 system but I am currently designing a high fantasy one-shot adventure so this question has occurred to me as well. Here's how I am going to try to deal with it:
Magic comes from within the earth itself. Scholars have spent centuries trying to figure out the details beyond that and there are libraries filled with theories, research and findings. Half of these conflict with the other half. What is known for sure is that some can channel this energy. They draw the energy into their body and use it to create any effect imaginable. What you can do is limited by your imagination, your skill in 'crafting' this energy, and its effect on your body.
In game terms this means a simple magic attack is as tiring as swinging a blade and greater effects are even more tiring. Yeah, you can do some really crazy stuff but you may find yourself passing out and involuntarily sleeping half the day away. In this way I hope to make being non-mystical just as useful as being mystical.
Once I corral some victi-, er guinea pi-, er nice friends into helping me test this out I'll post the actual results.
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Member | JenBurdoo posts 18 3:46 pm July 12, 2010
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It seems to me that the obvious answer is to delimit magic in your universe (which is mentioned in XDM). Make the player decide beforehand what his limits are. Is he a fire mage? Then he can (try to) do anything the hell he wants with fire, but if he wants to do something involving water it will be much more difficult or even impossible. DnD and Warhammer Fantasy both have "schools" of magic, which a character can select from but still can't do everything. Choose "Wild Magic" and you can talk to the trees, summon a swarm of critters or cause a forest fire, but you can't forge a sword or pick a lock UNLESS you do it by using wild magic. Say, by having a bear smash the door open.
I think of XDM as a system for playing published games without the hassle of using their rules systems, not as a totally freeform rpg, so YMMV here…
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Member | Pickleburp Utah posts 9 4:38 pm September 22, 2010
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This is a topic I've thought about recently with pondering the XD20 system.
One solution I thought of, at least for my horror/modern settings is to use rules similar to modern magic practitioners combined with the "more difficult the spell, the higher the difficulty."
I think the easiest way to get a grasp on this is to read one of the multitude of Book of Shadows titles (I enjoyed Migene-Gonzales Whippler's) or some of the intro to magic titles by Raven Grimassi or Silver Ravenwolf. There are a few other authors my pagan friends or I might recommend, but dig through Amazon or Barnes and Noble and you can find books on general witchcraft as well as specific studies such as Druidism and Shamanism. Keep in mind that Wicca is not the only witchcraft religion out there. Most RPG games include some form of "spell component" such as gestures, physical objects, symbols, time frames for casting, etc. I don't expect them to memorize actual spells to cast, but an understanding of the types of possible spells and how difficult they would be.
With that, it also gives them an idea of their powers and limitations. Being able to cast a "fireball" might be out of the question, but causing an object to heat up to uncomfortable levels for someone to hold isn't unheard of. More powerful magics take a LOT of preparation and time, and don't always work instantly.
As DocTwisted mentioned, I don't want them trying to scry an entire dungeon before entering it, not to mention that carrying a scrying bowl or scrying mirror of sufficient size to be usable is like carrying the 10-foot pole into the dungeon. A Robe of Storing might help solve that issue, or a hand-held crystal ball (real crystal balls are made out of elements like quartzite, are expensive, and are full of bubbles that I've been told adds to the their ability to scry). In that situation I would give hints but only enough to foreshadow what's coming up, not enough to spoil it. The DM is in charge of regulating how well it works. Not to mention that with scrying, its difficult to get even 90% clarity. Shapes, feelings/impressions, partial scenes are far more likely for someone who isn't incredibly advanced in mysticism. They may see a PC standing with blood on their hands, but they don't know who's it is or where it came from, then suddenly it shifts and they see a different PC standing over the first PC's body with a drawn weapon. These could be story elements you already had planned, so it's not a huge hassle to just dish out a little info that leaves them guessing. :)
I'm sure for some players this may feel far too limited, but I think in a modern setting it's appropriate. Even if you don't want to use the exact systems or spells, learning about modern earth-based religions is actually a lot of fun and might actually help expand your mind!
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Member | ignifluous posts 3 8:10 pm July 7, 2011
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One thing I tried was to enthusiastically enforce entropy and the laws of motion onto magic.
My setting info listed the rules of magic as – "Everything comes from somewhere. Nothing lasts forever. Magic is change."
Each player was able to manipulate one "thing" magically – (light, fire, thought, electricity, bread, left-handed scissors, trees, nose-hairs, etc…)
If a player wanted to achieve some magic, they had to explain the intended effect, where they were intending to source the cost/power from. Depending on the rolls, the effects, cost, and entropic loss would be applied with varying degrees of alignment to their original intention.
For example, the party's thoughtmancer, in trying to damp the aggression of a charging boar, was forced to heighten the aggression of another party member as the cost/power source. Due to entropy-induced lossiness (and poor rolling :-), the unsuspecting party paladin ended up consumed by rage for a few minutes, while the boar was merely somewhat confused, although admittedly ceased his immediate charge.
When the party's thoughtmancer would later try to read the Old Wizard's mind, he found himself broadcasting some of his own thoughts as the cost.
Endless fun, particularly if the dice suggest the player didn't succeed in drawing power from their intended source …
PS: The players did eventually innovate, of course, and work out that they could use their target as their power source, and something less consequential as the "spell target" – effectively catching their desired victim in the entropy-magnified backblast of the spell. Which I, as a budding XDM, though was Awesome.
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New Member | Grem Gregarious posts 2 11:16 pm February 13, 2012
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MadLordOfMilk said:
After reading over the XD20 rules, and based on my experience with very rules-light games like Risus, my only question is this: how do you limit magic?
After all, magic can't do everything, that'd be silly. However, it's not exactly clear in how to limit its effectiveness. In games of Risus, I've seen players rattle off some random effect they want to cast, and the more ridiculous it is the higher the DC they're asked to roll. The thing is, sometimes it might not be so ridiculous, as they might've had a different definition of "magic" than the DM. I get the feeling this could easily occur in XD20 as well.
So, barring the obviously broken (read: clown shoes ridiculous), what's the best way to define magic in terms of its limitations/expectations?
I've not playtested this yet, but since the goal is always to maximize fun, I imagine this would be a very entertaining way to limit magic: Imagine a world where basic cantrips are not too difficult to cast — they're safe, generally known, and somewhat frequently used in daily life. It is known, too, that to do anything other than lighting a candle, or creating a simple sound effect, for example, carries with it an extreme risk of colorful death (usually by sudden head explosion!). Therefore, few ever risk bigger magic unless they find themselves in the most dire of circumstances. The odds improve slightly over death with each successful casting of bigger magic, as it is only by doing it that one gains the mystical insight into how to minimize the chances, but one literally gambles with their life to gain the knowledge. Since the starting odds are so poor (say, 35% for success), mages are extremely rare, extremely lucky, and usually insane. The XDM might improve the odds of a player not dying by 5% for each successful cast. (That doesn't mean the spell automatically works — there's still the chance of spell failure.) All mages know, though, that no matter how good they are/become, there is always some small chance of death (1%-5%). Think of the table tension/excitement this might create every time a spell is cast! Think of the story opportunities this might create! I look forward to trying this out at the table soon!
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